No Military ships or personal will attack federation civilians except during times of extreme civil request and only once such actions have the approval of at least 75% of the senate. Any military officer breaking this would be subject to an immediate dishonorable discharge and an immediate trial in front of the full senate.
No military ships or personal will attack other races the federation is not currently at war with without the approval of the majority of the senate. Any military officer breaking this would be subject to an immediate dishonorable discharge and an immediate trial in front of the full senate.
No military officer will have a vote in the senate and will no longer be allowed to propose any bills. They will have to petition a system lord to do it if they want a bill proposed.
All military units and ships will be distributed evenly among the current military leaders. Specifics of this will be left up to the military. This effectively means that there will no longer be one individual in charge of the military.*
The federal surplus and the special defense funding the military receives will be completely removed.*
Examples of this funding taken from most recent federal budget report:
{R} Defense Funding to Kana -15,170-3,667-16,151
Surplus share for Kana (Military) -5,049-6,464-4,147-4,415
This funding would be distributed with the normal federal surplus to the system lords. All further funding for the military will come from the systems lords on a case by case basis when the need for military assistance arises. The price of such assistance is negotiable between the system lords and the numerous military commanders.*
Each military commander is allowed to own/control one planet to have their forces based out of. How these planets are aquired and the location of the planets is left up to the military. However no planet or system currently colonized by the federation may be under the control of the military without the express permission of the system lord currently in charge of it. This means that it will need to be colonized outside of federation space or purchased from a system lord. Military commanders will still be able to lease or borrow use of planets with permission of the system lord in charge of it.*
*Would take effect 2 months after the bill passes to allow the military leadership to transistion into its new structure.
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Let me begin by saying that this response is totally appropriate to the Navy's initial response to the failed vote of Bill #24058-1. The Navy has retracted its earlier statement, and agrees completely with the System Lord, that Military ships attacking federation civilians is indead a henious crime. We the Navy support this portion of the bill and its structure for the punishment and procedure for handling officers who commit such acts.
As for attacks against other Races. Again this is also agreed apon by the Navy. The CNO would like to point out that currently we are at War relations with all other species in the galaxy that we have contact with. None of the current SL's have deemed it neccessary to establish relations with them to possible end any potential extreme conflict.
As for voting in the Senate. All of us our citizens, all of us our Senators, therfore we all have the right to propose bills and law, and also allowed a vote in the Senate. This should never change.
Currently the Navy is split into two seperate commands. The Navy, responsible for defense and offense in what appears to be the comming war with the galaxy, and the ESC ( Exploration and Survey Command). The ESC mainly be responsible for scouting and recon into enemy territories, but also to provide survey data of unexplored systems for future colonization.
As for cutting military funding, and forcing the military into basically seperate camps, exiled to some back water planet, and having to beg for table scraps will end up forcing the federation into civil war. Soon every SL will have its own private military, and will then be able to wage war on its neighbors, or the galaxy as a whole. Esentially the military as a whole will turn into groups of mercenaries cutting each others throats to gain a scrap to be able to pay for the upkeep of their equipment, the pay for their crews and officers, and being able to further research upgrades to equipment.
The whole reason for Bill #24058-1 was to allow the ESC to be able to fund its activities at a resonable rate, in exchange the SL's would gain knowledge of available planets for colonization.
As it stands as a whole the Navy is being payed by the SL's via the federal surplus. So nothing from nothing is still nothing for the military. Currently the military leases yard space, and purchases ships from SL's they are basically making their own money back. The military owns no assets other than the ships they purchase. We do not have access to our own resources, and via provisions in this bill will only have be able to eek out an existence from one meager planet, and handouts from the SL's. Essentially the Military Officer would end up being a second class citizen. I being a noble naval officer, I am outraged by this thought. FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV) Back to top
I have recently redecided my opinion on this bill.
I suggest a slight decrease of 1.3% per SL in the funding of the military. This extra is to be used for the improvement of the Federated worlds. How it will be used should be up for discussion as well. System Lord of the D'narlom Society
Last edited by Dkanre on Wed Sep 19, 2007 6:48 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top
I am saddened to see such a harsh bill be introduced into this Senate. There are other ways to express reaction to the Naval response of failed Bill #24058-1. You could issue a statement, demand an apology or even call for a censure. But a bill of this nature is offensive.
This bill would strip the military of funding during a time of war. We would not be able to support the ships we already have. Forces that have fought in and protected Fizbon, Maverick and Zitrod would be mothballed. Newer designs would never be built, as we would have no resources to lease shipyards.
I also staunchly disagree with re-organization. To reorganize while we are at war would weaken our position. First Space Lord Kana has gone to great lengths to organize the fleets into effective military forces.
I will not even address the third paragraph.
Finally, I would like to point out that paragraph 2, regarding engagement of neutral races, is already followed by the Navy's Rules of Engagement. The First Space Lord made it expressly clear to all officers over a year ago. In my time as an officer, no ship under my command has ever fired upon an alien vessel without provocation. Prophet, CEO Dragonstar Industries Back to top
I went too far with completely cutting all federal funding. The military should continue to receive funding to cover the maintence of its ships and facilities and to pay its personnel but all other funding should be distributed in the way I put forth in the original bill. This would ensure no disruption or degradation of our current military forces in any way.
Also the military should get one vote in the senate from which ever one of their peers they decicde is best for the job. But everytime the military gains a new officer thry shouldn't be gaining more power in the senate or sooner or later the military will have the majority. Space Empire's Center
Leader of the Illuminatia Brotherhood in PBCIV Back to top
Please consider the situation we are in, as many of you have worlds along the borders. We are at war with no less than 5 races. At least 3 have already penetrated our borders, which this very Navy has responded to. So far it has only been a ship here and there. But what will we do when our enemies start sending multiple ships against us?
Even with the alteration SL Combat Wombat says, the military would be crippled. Growth would slow to a crawl at a time when we are trying to arm against several hostile nations. Officers would be caught in a compromised position, having to negotiate with a SL for a lease only to turn around and have to negotiate with all SLs for the funding to pay for the lease. How much time will be lost in the process?
There is no evidence to indicate that military votes will ever become the majority. It is just as likely that there will be more SLs as there will be more officers. And I for one vote as I feel, not necessarily as the CNO does. I should not be penalized simply because I put on a uniform and fight to defend this Federation.
I am asking everyone in the Senate to take a step back and think. Do we really want to penalize the entire Navy like this over a statement that was retracted before this bill was introduced?
- Stripping of all funding except to pay bare maintenance costs right now
- Completely compromised negotiating position, and lengthy process that forces officers to think more about funding than military duties
- Decentralized military, which with the points above would turn each officer into a mercenary commander
- Taking away all but 1 vote, and silencing fellow citizens
It is understandable to be outraged over the statement. But is it just to allow these drastic measures to become law? Prophet, CEO Dragonstar Industries Back to top
Being a System Lord of few words, here is what I believe:
1) The Military should get a percentage of GRP (Gross Resource Production) the percentage to be voted upon year by year.
2) The military should get a vote just as a normal citizen
3) If the Military needs an emergency influx of resource in a time of war, then the EWMA (Emergency War Measures Act) Would call a quick vote to approve.
4) Colonization is not to be the responsibility of the Military.
5) The Military does Not attack first. That is our race's code of Honour.
6) The Military can ask for a System Lord to colonise a strategic planet and ask for specific facilities. But the planet would still be in control of the system lord.
7) I expect that System Lords would be eager to provide "service" to the Military in terms of building and selling of ships and units for profit.
So can we get a summary list of what exactly would be covered by this Bill if and when it goes to vote? Basically break it down into a line item format, so that we can consider each issue. Maybe there can be some give an take here, or possible seperation of the issues for seperate votes. FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV) Back to top
SL Monzo, I agree with most of what you have said. Though I ask for a bit of clarification regarding the 2nd point:
Quote:
2) The military should get a vote just as a normal citizen
Did you mean the military, as a whole, should be treated as a citizen (and thus get 1 vote)? Or that military officers should be treated as citizens (and each get a vote)?
Also, about the 3rd point:
Quote:
3) If the Military needs an emergency influx of resource in a time of war, then the EWMA (Emergency War Measures Act) Would call a quick vote to approve.
I agree that there should be such a measure, perhaps even a separate bill for it. I ask that "a quick vote" be clearly defined by the Senate. Commanders need to know how much delay there will be in an emergency. Prophet, CEO Dragonstar Industries Back to top
In a time of crisis, the system lords involved could certainly divert resources on the same day as the threat makes itself known.
Federal funding could make its way through the standard process in two or three months depending on how clear the need is.
I find it doubtful that significantly increased funding could be converted to additional hardware production in a shorter time frame than that.
I'd suggest an Emergency Measures act might include:
- An on-demand federal loan of 20,000 resources, with repayment of 1050/month over 2 years. Cannot be re-used until paid in full (1000/outstanding month if paid early).
========
Reasoning: To tide the budget over until funding bills pass through the senate
========
- Ability to draft armed and cargo-carrying ships other than personal flagships into military fleets at a cost of triple their maintenance paid to the owner.
========
Reasoning: Provides for emergency defense, evacuation and logistics, while allowing for funding the return trip plus danger pay so it is not abused.
======== Back to top
In a time of crisis, the system lords involved could certainly divert resources on the same day as the threat makes itself known.
Federal funding could make its way through the standard process in two or three months depending on how clear the need is.
I find it doubtful that significantly increased funding could be converted to additional hardware production in a shorter time frame than that.
I'd suggest an Emergency Measures act might include:
- An on-demand federal loan of 20,000 resources, with repayment of 1050/month over 2 years. Cannot be re-used until paid in full (1000/outstanding month if paid early).
========
Reasoning: To tide the budget over until funding bills pass through the senate
========
- Ability to draft armed and cargo-carrying ships other than personal flagships into military fleets at a cost of triple their maintenance paid to the owner.
========
Reasoning: Provides for emergency defense, evacuation and logistics, while allowing for funding the return trip plus danger pay so it is not abused.
========
All of this sounds great, but it may need modification, if this current bill passes, and the military is split up. Provisions would have to be made to taken in account the multiple pieces of the new military animal. Of course this should all be considered and discussed in a new piece of legistlature. FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV) Back to top
*by holo-cast, a middle aged naval officer appears on the floor*
Respectfully sir, I am currently an officer of the FWSN, and though I may not have the rights to vote yet, I assure you that an ax-blow such as what you are proposing to the Navy's budget and legal representation would drive the members of my fleet to mutiny.
What you propose is frankly suicide for any outlying systems outside the core worlds, as under this new 'management' there would be NO incentive to control our borders. We as the military would flock to whoever would feed our soldiers and pilots, and be forced to openly ignore the unity of our Federation. Corruption would become rampant, and the noble Star Navy degraded into lowly mercenaries. I urge those system lords on all fronts to the enemy to carefully reconsider the implications cutting funding to your aegis shield against your foes.
Regarding voting status, I command a fleet that defends this exact senate from our hostile neighbors, I do indeed risk my life, and I am currently on the advance to a border system, following orders. I intend to go there and remove threats to this federation in the hopes that the very people I protect will spread throughout our known space and prosper. I have no voting rights, and do not expect to get them, however this 'all or none' argument being bandied about is pure madness. Our worlds are neither monochromatic or a stratocracy.
I propose that the military gets a block of votes, determined by an expression of a percent of the total possible votes.
The percent is negotiable and I expect it to be fair to all, and this will ensure that the military is represented in the senate, yet there would never be a majority of military votes based on the raw amount of officers. I feel this is a much more rational way of limited involvement of the military in legislative action, rather than the base stripping of voting rights proposed above.
I have no voting rights, and do not expect to get them, however this 'all or none' argument being bandied about is pure madness. Our worlds are neither monochromatic or a stratocracy.
I propose that the military gets a block of votes, determined by an expression of a percent of the total possible votes.
The percent is negotiable and I expect it to be fair to all, and this will ensure that the military is represented in the senate, yet there would never be a majority of military votes based on the raw amount of officers. I feel this is a much more rational way of limited involvement of the military in legislative action, rather than the base stripping of voting rights proposed above.
Thank you for your time, senators.
Kotau is unfortunately unclear on the rights that all citizens of the Federation currently have. The most important is equal represenation in the Senate. Meaning that each citizen, be it a lowly ship captain, to a high system lord, all have one vote. Also each has the right to bring issues, bills, and motions to the senate for attention, discussion, and inclusion into the law of the federation.
As for the percenatge of votes idea. This could work, if the senate beliveves its warranted. I still feel that each citizen still receive at least one vote each, and the right to propose and discuss issues in the senate. Yet to reflect this voting percenatage, maybe develop a voting block system, either based on position (Naval Commander, Minister, Corporate CEO, System Lord) and or, by overall domain control. This could impact the SL's ultimately more, because they would receive more voting blocks based on the amount of planets, resources, or population they control. This will hurt non-SL's in that they currently dont' have access to planets, population and self resource generation, yet if given a proper structure for increasing voting blocks, I dont' see it as a problem. FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV) Back to top
By the millitary getting one vote I mean one vote per officer.
SL Monzo, I agree with most of what you have said. Though I ask for a bit of clarification regarding the 2nd point:
Quote:
2) The military should get a vote just as a normal citizen
Did you mean the military, as a whole, should be treated as a citizen (and thus get 1 vote)? Or that military officers should be treated as citizens (and each get a vote)?
Also, about the 3rd point:
Quote:
3) If the Military needs an emergency influx of resource in a time of war, then the EWMA (Emergency War Measures Act) Would call a quick vote to approve.
I agree that there should be such a measure, perhaps even a separate bill for it. I ask that "a quick vote" be clearly defined by the Senate. Commanders need to know how much delay ther Back to top
Joined: Jun 02, 2005 Location: Backwater Industrial City
Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm Post subject:
I think perhaps it would be more appropriate for voting privileges to be reserved for higher ranking officers, like commodores or admirals. The upper echelons, as it were. They're the naval equivalent of system lords in the sense that they are in command of multiple ships in the way that system lords govern multiple planets. The same should apply for young upstart governors, who have only colonized one or two planets, but that's for a different bill. Back to top
I think perhaps it would be more appropriate for voting privileges to be reserved for higher ranking officers, like commodores or admirals. The upper echelons, as it were. They're the naval equivalent of system lords in the sense that they are in command of multiple ships in the way that system lords govern multiple planets. The same should apply for young upstart governors, who have only colonized one or two planets, but that's for a different bill.
Thats why the suggestion of allowing mulitple voting blocks based on status or postion to be considered. All citizens (players) are members of the senate and should be granted at least one vote. If you are a system lord, or a high ranking officer, or possibly filling a goverment position you might gain additonal votes. Something to consider. FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV) Back to top
OOC: I think that the issue of voting is a tricky one. Indeed every citizen is entitled to a vote (as things stand for now.) But, who is casting the votes for the other 4 billion citizens not represented by players? If indeed the vote of a player represents also, that players subordinates, then votes should indeed be weighted by the numbers of subordinates that player represents.
This should be easy to determine for system lords, they cast a number of votes equal to their planetary population totals. A military officer should only be able to vote for, say, the crews of all of his combined ships, plus a percentage of that, which represents support personnel. A system lord should probably also get votes for the crews of ships he directly controls, although the support personnel would be part of his planetary population. of course each player will have one additional vote for their avatar.
This of course is just a suggestion for a possible mechanic for solving the voting issue.
Joshua Space Empires IV Code:
A Se GdY $+ Fr+ C Css Sf Ai Au+ M Mp* S+++ Ss- RPTN Pw Fq Nd Rp G+++ Mm+++ Bb++ Back to top
OOC: I think that the issue of voting is a tricky one.
I completely agree. The issue is tricky. That is why I recommend it be removed from this bill entirely. If we are going to alter the voting process, the debate should not be restricted to only military votes. The bill should look at voting as a whole system, to maintain a fair balance. Prophet, CEO Dragonstar Industries Back to top
I agree, I submit that the voting section of this bill be stricken, and that voting be taken up as a separate item completely. Space Empires IV Code:
A Se GdY $+ Fr+ C Css Sf Ai Au+ M Mp* S+++ Ss- RPTN Pw Fq Nd Rp G+++ Mm+++ Bb++ Back to top
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Leader of the Illuminatia Brotherhood in PBCIV
FSL Kana/CNO F.W.S.N/FNS Brawler (PBC IV)
Prophet, CEO Dragonstar Industries
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