Balance Mod for Stock SEV Petition

Combat_Wombat · Moderator Joined: Nov 04, 2003 Location: Minnesota

If you want Kwok's Balance Mod to become stock SE5 like it was meant to please sign this petition. Hopefully if enough people sign we can convince Aaron it is a good idea.

http://www.spaceempires.net/balance/

CaptainKwok · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject:

Honestly, I think it's too late for the Balance Mod to replace stock. It really had to be done before SE:V was released. To supplant stock at this point would be unfair to players who like stock, as they would no longer see there version of the game supported. Right now, the Balance Mod is easily available for anyone that wishes to play a different game and as such, both Stock and Balance Mod versions continue to be supported. I think at this point it would probably be best to include the Balance Mod with SE:V as an optional game type. I don't see any advantge on a community level to do otherwise.

Combat_Wombat · Moderator Joined: Nov 04, 2003 Location: Minnesota

Taken from the Shrapnel Forums version of this thread:

Warped · Space Emperor Joined: May 08, 2005 Location: NY, USA

How about having the Balance Mod made stock, and the former stock mod turned into something else (The Mod Formerly Known as Stock?). That way, those that don't know the difference get a better gaming experience, modders get a better basis, and those that really like stock can load it up as a mod.

CaptainKwok · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject:

I see the point Raapys made - but I think everyone (not just 90%) could be better served if the Balance Mod was just included as a game type with SE:V itself - either through a future patch or expansion.

Combat_Wombat · Moderator Joined: Nov 04, 2003 Location: Minnesota

CaptainKwok · Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject:

As long as there both available game types - I don't think it matters what they are called.

Combat_Wombat · Moderator Joined: Nov 04, 2003 Location: Minnesota

albi_joe · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 19, 2005 Location: USA

Why not just "patch" the Stock to balance the game and add an "unbalanced" mod? And is this petition on Shrapnel as well?

I just think it will take the game one step closer to larger acceptance. How many times have you seen balance issues mentioned in a game review?

Moonsword · Space Emperor Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Location: Georgia

There are three reasons not to do this:

First, stock is already released. People already use it. Maybe improvements are needed but, at the moment, the core team has bigger problems (like bug-hunting.

Second, the modders do not want their standards (stock) to get jerked around sharply.

Third, Balance Mod has a very short development cycle because there is one dedicated individual. That changes once Kwok is accountable to the corporate masters at SFI.

Mohs · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject:

and, not everything got better in the balance mod Razz

The 2 "Mods" are played too different to call one the balanced version of the other.

Fyron · Galactic Guru Joined: Aug 04, 2003 Location: CA, USA

Well, it is quite easy and correct to so that the current stock is the extremely unbalanced version of something... Just do the math to compare things, you will see what I mean.

Mohs · Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject:

well for modders, does it matter, from which version they start their modding?
they can start from stock or balance (or whatever will be released next), as they wish.
Nobody is forced to use stock as the ground to build your mod onto (I whould also prefer the balanced mod for future modding).

albi_joe · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 19, 2005 Location: USA

Fyron,
I think the thought on that second point would be that the Cap'n would then have to listen to corporate masters whenever he wanted a change.

I think Balance as it is could work, and he could start another mod for future "changes" to Balance.

Of course, with the mod loader part of the game (Thanks, everyone!) I don't really think this is a huge issue either way.

Fyron · Galactic Guru Joined: Aug 04, 2003 Location: CA, USA

S1st has nothing to do with SE5 development... It's all MM/Aaron Hall.

BlessedWrath · Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject:

Personally, I have never been comfortable with "stock" games, in either SE: V or SE: IV. But to reach that decision, I had to play stock first. I had to know what it was "supposed to be" before I could go in there and fiddle with the settings.

Personally, I don't feel that altering the stock is necessary at this point. The first point that supports this opinion is the availability of downloadable mod files from myriad dozens of fan sites, not to mention Malfador.com and Spaceempires.net. I have been met with more mods than I even cared to inspect, for all the time it would take to compare them.

The second point that supports my opinion is the inevitability of patch files. No game I've ever seen that has been released since the creation of the internet has been without patch files. This idea makes certain that the game can grow, and change, over time, with the support and help of the game's actual players. There is also a wide community support on the forums where the company can gather information about what should go into a patch. Before the game's released, that isn't really possible. The development team can talk all they want about what they're doing, but the reality is that beta testing isn't always available to the game's target audience. Simply put, most of who is going to buy the game are not going to be privy to its internal workings until they have it in-hand.

It would be ignorant to assume that there are people who will buy this game who do not have access to the internet. I, myself, only have access because I have a laptop with integrated wireless. For these people, there are options. There are thumb drives and burnable CDs that can house patches, and there are public computers. Even if they live in the sticks, and can't get out to a place that has these conveniences, a patch disc could be released and mailed (for a fee). Point is, the game is never done. As long as it is open for edit, there will always be another good idea to change its rules. I think it would be wasted effort to alter the base files.

I'm not against it, mind you. I just think there are other things the team could work on, as was mentioned before.

BlessedWrath · Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject:

Well, my opinion has changed slightly. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere on the forum that the Balance Mod FUBARs the research queue, drastically reducing the amount of time it takes to clear the entire thing.

Since the new research style was one of my favourite things about SE V, I am now firmly against trying this mod. Is there a way to get a listing of things that were changed, and to pick out the ones I like?

CaptainKwok · Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject:

While the mod reduces the number of tech levels for most research areas, the time spent researching is not "drastically" reduced because the tech costs are increased accordingly.

SuicideJunkie · Leaky Guru Joined: May 28, 2005 Location: Canada!

Instead of having 10 levels with trivial improvements each step, you just get 2 levels that provide worthwhile improvements to get the same effectiveness at the same research cost.
Just with less chaff in the middle to clog the log and make you redesign stuff every turn.

BlessedWrath · Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 2:18 am Post subject:

I like the smaller increments. I think they're more realistic, and they also bring research more to the fore; you have to pay more attention to what tech you're getting, and why. There is also added potential for cross-tree researching, and composite tech components/facilities.

Meh. Just my opinion.

BlueTemplar · Space Emperor Joined: Mar 27, 2007

I prefer the BM research style. You have to plan ahead for the research, make choices, and you will really feel it when you've made a good one or a mistake: research is more rewarding when you get one big level every 2-3 turns.
The drawback is that you cannot fully customise your ships down to the kT and damage point, but as already said most of the time it's a lot more annoying than useful.